The Headhunter

The Carnival buzz, an Indian murder mystery and a visit from a headhunter...

G: Have you…er…have you seen the rain outside?

J: How can you not miss the rain? I mean it’s…a…here’s a…a sm…small little story. Close to my house…ten minutes from our house is…a friend of ours where, in a building, and they were…they weren’t able to leave the building because they were surrounded by water.

G: Wow.

J: They were completely flooded. The garage was flooded to the roof. It was actually on Globo Play.

G: I was expecting to see sharks coming down the street, do you know? I thought England was bad for rain but I’ve never known anything like this!

J: This, no, this was the worst rain in, I think, 77 years.

G: 77. Wow.

J: Eesh.

G: But we have no global warming.

J: No. Of course not.

G: No. Anyhow, let’s start the pod.

J: Let’s go.  

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G: Hello, and welcome to another edition of The Samba Buzz!

J: That’s ‘buzz’ with two zees.

G: Or two zeds. So Jay, how are you today?

J: Well, you…er…know, it’s Carnival!

G: It is Carnival this week. That’s really exciting!

J: So it’s…Carnival’s a big deal – especially in Brazil.

G: And, this year, especially in São Paulo. Did you know that Carnival in…in São Paulo is almost as big as Carnival in Rio?

J: Er, no, I did not know that.

G: In terms of numbers, they’re expecting 15 million people this year.

J: 15?

G: 15. And, we’re going to have 700 and…800 street parties compared to Rio’s 400.

J: I know there…there was a street party right in front of my house. It’s actually lots of fun. They’ve arranged it so…I think it started at, I think six o’clock and went to eleven o’clock. So eleven o’clock it’s done.

G: Ok. So that’s not bad then.

J: The year before it was a little bit earlier but then they pushed it back a little bit.

G: So how was the street party?

J: The stree…it was fantastic. I went there with my daughter. I went there with my wife, everybody and they…it was just lots of fun.

G: And did you have lots of naked women prancing past your door?

J: It…it was a little bit more than last year, cos last year we didn’t have any!

G: Oh, ok.

J: There was…there was…there was one situation. It’s kind of funny. Um, my…my…we were…like I said, I was there with my daughter. She’s 5 years old. And we were walking, and at the street party it’s…it’s…it’s a normal street, and everybody from the neighborhood goes there, cos it’s….it’s like a neighborhood thing. You go out there. You...some people dress up, some people don’t. Some people put on costumes, some people don’t. Most people have beer. Some people just go with a kool-aid, and then you have stuff for kids.

G: Ok.

J: So, it’s a bunch of people standing in the street, having a good time, being social. No cars. Right?

G: Sounds lovely.

J: And a couple of years ago, it was…it was really relaxed. There was just mostly families and little kids out there. My daughter was actually sitting in the street, picking up the confetti and throwing it up into the air. It was a lot of fun. And we…I…I bought a couple of those cannisters that you spray foam. So I was spraying it up in the air, and I’d spray people and they’d spray me, and it was just fun. So, we were walking down the street and my…my daughter comes to me, she says, er, “Papai”…er, she says, Daddy, “Estrela! Estr…” She s…s…s…says, Star! Star! And she pointed, and there was a girl standing over there and she only had stars on. So...I mean but that’s...that’s the life of...of a kid. They notice the stars.

G: And you were star-struck!

J: Yeah, she was star-struck.

G: You were star-struck!

J: I was. My wi...

G: More than she was.

J: My wife was definitely star-struck. She was, like, a little bit struck.

G: Yes. This is...this is definitely slap territory, actually, so you’ve got to be careful there.

J: So er, so there my daughter was with....er...a girl in stars – only stars only. You can imagine what she was covering. And...er...yeah. That was our...our, you know...

G: And...and ‘did it rain?’ is the question.

J: No, it didn’t rain. It was Saturday afternoon. It was actually nice weather.

G: Cos, you know, the...um... the council have been trying very hard to prevent the rain this year.

J: Oh.

G: In fact they hired a company called Modclima...

J: Modclima.

G: ...to use...um... cloud-seeding technology. Have you heard of cloud-seeding?

J: Yes, but th-that’s when they...they spray something in the clouds to make it rain, right?

G: Exactly. So the idea was – this was sponsored by Skol, one of the beer companies.

J: Ok.

G: And they had a plane and they flew up into the heavens and, instead of...er... spraying the silver iodide, which is what they normally spray, they decided they would just use, um, ice crystals – or water.  So they...they sprayed a bunch of water into the rain-clouds, and the idea is that the rain would fall prior to arriving here at...for the Carnival. So the rain would fall outside of the city.

J: Oh.

G: And S-Saturday and Sunday it was cloudy but it didn’t rain. So everybody thought – ‘Wow, this is great!’ You know?

J: It worked.

G: ‘God bless the prefeitura...the...’

J: The Mayor.

G: ...the Mayor.’ And...um...of course it gets to Monday, and it absolutely rains cats and dogs. It comes down like you wouldn’t believe and then, of course, everybody is very disillusioned by this technology.

J: Yes.

G: But at least they’re trying. They’re spending money to try and prevent the rain and have a better Carnival for everybody. I think it’s a bit of a gimmick, a bit of a publicity stunt, in my...my view. But...

J: Sounds like.

G: Anyhow, so what was your perception before you came?

J: Well, I...I actually had no idea what it was. The only thing I really knew about was the floats, because that...that’s what I had seen on television.

G: Right.

J: But th-the whole cultural aspect of it, and that...that there was a lot of communities and neighborhoods involved – I had no idea. I had no idea how it worked. I just thought it was a bunch of floats, and naked girls.

G: Yeah, that’s very much what the gringo thinks of Brazil, when they think of Carnival. They think of half-naked women dancing in the street, lots of feathers and bright colors.

J: And but it...But it’s much more than that.

G: Of course.

J: I participated in a carnival...er...actually, I went in a desfile one...one year.

G: You were wearing the stars at the front of the carnival??

J:  Well, I didn’t have any stars on, but I did have a costume. It covered most of my body. But yes.  

G: That’s probably not a bad thing. So what were you wearing? I’m very curious now.

J: Well, I had on a hat with some feathers, and I had some wings, and I had gloves and boots. Yes, it was all covered. It was all hand-made.

G: And you were going as Woody Woodpecker, or...?

J: No, I...I...I don’t really know what I was. It was just very colorful. It was, like, lots of blues and greens and...it was very pretty. It was very colorful.

G: Ah, so a customized costume?

J: Yes it was. And...and...but that’s something that most people don’t know...is that how much Carnival actually generates in revenue because they have to have people that make these custom-made costumes. And that generates a lot of extra revenue for the people in, let’s say, some of the poorer neighborhoods that...that put these things together.

G: That’s true. Two and a half billion in São Paulo this year, apparently.

J: That’s quite bit of money.

G: That’s a lot of money. So you’re ...you’re at the front of this – well you’re not at the front – you are wearing this, sort of, duck costume, then and... What are you...what are you doing? You are just there dancing? Do you have a routine?

J: Well, the thing is, we practiced this, I think, for about 3 months, prior to the actual carnival. We had...er...rehearsed this in smaller groups, and the...the way it worked was there was, like, a coordinator for our particular group. Ok, and...in...just to have some idea, every....every carnival school can have up to about 3000 people.

G: Wow.

J: And, and so and then, they’re divided into different...different places, they have different themes and different things that they have to do. My particular thing that I had to do was – I had to sing a song and do a particular dance.

G: Oh no! Not singing again!

J: No, I...I...yeah. Luckily...

G: So after you finished, there was only 2000 in the room?

J: It was actually a complicated thing.

G: Wow. I’m, very impressed, actually. You wouldn’t catch me doing that.

J: No, probably not, but we practiced this for about, I’d say, 4 or 5 times before...er...the rehearsal. So, so, it was, like, like a week-end the coordinator would call us up. We would go to his house, and he would teach us part of the song or part of the dance, and we would drink a bunch of beer, and then we’d go home. That was, basically, the...the practice.

G: Well, the beer part sounds good, yes.

J: Yes, that was good. Or you...it didn’t have to be beer. It could be any kind of...er...refreshment. Whatever.

G: Ok.

J: But it was a thing to do with friends. It wasn’t something you were supposed to do alone. So, you could go there, meet other people in the group, participate in this. It’s...it was a group activity, and it was actually quite a bit of fun. On the day of the...the actual desfile, when we had to go perform.

G: So, a desfile is a...

J:Well, that, I would say that’s when...that’s the actual parade.

G: It’s like a parade, isn’t it?

J: Yes, that’s the parade itself. That’s when the people go up there and you go... because there’s 3000 people, you can’t all enter at once, so you go in...off different sections. And...er...the sections were actually quite nice. It took me, I think, about 30 minutes from the time they opened the gate until I actually entered.

G: Ok.

J: But I...I wanted to tell you a little bit about the particular school that I danced with, because on the year that I went, they won!

G: Wow.

J: Yeah.

G: Obviously because you were participating!

J: Well, I don’t know if it was because of me, but they won. So, the school that I went with is called, Mocidade Alegre.

G: Ok.

J: And I want to say a little bit about the history of how that started. Um, it started in 1948, and it was actually kind of a joke, because in the area of Bom Retiro in São Paulo, they had just taken out a bunch of the brothels.

G: Ok.

J: Ok, so a lot of the...the...the houses of recreation had been taken away and the men did this as kind of...er...it’s not a protest but they were responding to the...the situation.

G: But who closed the brothels? Was it th-the mayor again?

J: Yeah, it was the mayor. The city decided to close some of the brothels. So what the men did, er, they decided to dress up as women...

G: Ok.

J: ...and then parade through the, through the town, you know, dressed up as women, and being a little bit provocative. Ah, actually, with this particular school, women did not participate until 1963.

G: Wow.

J: So, for about 15 years it was strictly men only. Eventually they got one of the local supermarkets to sponsor them, because obviously you have a lot of cost involved here. And then the...it was a way for the...the supermarket to get some publicity, and these guys were able to show themselves on a larger scale.

G: Just to be clear, then, when they started going on the street in 1948...

J: 1948 was the first...

G:...the carnival was already in...in play at that time?

J: Right, but it wasn’t like an official, let’s say, thing. It was just going out there, having fun. Eventually the competition started to evolve. I don’t know exactly at what point competition started to evolve.

G: So probably in Rio it was already established but here in São Paulo it was just more of a street thing?

J: Yeah. So that’s...that’s kind of a little bit about the history of that particular school. So, yeah, that was the whole experience. It was fun.

G: That sounds an amazing experience. I’m...I’m very impressed.

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G: So, Jay, it’s been another busy week of news. What caught your eye this week?

J: I saw an article today and they are projecting that sales of new homes in São Paulo – the city of São Paulo – are expected to rise about 10% in this year, in 2020, according to the local housing union, Secovi...er...São Paulo. And, they say that this is a direct result of the government’s economic reforms and the low interest rates. If you remember, this was something that Tales had spoken about – that the government reforms were very positive, and he...and with...with the low interest rates, he projected....he did actually say that the construction sector w-would benefit from that.

G: So our economist had a correct forecast already? That’s...

J: I can’t give you the actual numbers now, for what it will be at the end of the year, but so far, the projections are all lining up.

G: I guess the mortgage rate is pretty low, isn’t it? You can probably get a mortgage for about 6 or 7% at the moment, can’t you?

J: Well, yes, in fact, some of the banks have been complaining because they say – ‘Well, we can’t get our margins. They’re used to giving, let’s say, housing loans for...for much higher rates, and now they are forced to give them for a little bit lower.

G: My sympathy overflows!

J: Yes, I...I have to say, I...the banks can go cry...cry a river. I’m not worried about that. Anyway...

G: So, that’s all very positive. So, then basically, residential properties are forecast to increase in value by up to 20% - or is that just new properties?

J: That’s...that’s new properties. A rise in (sic) 10%.

G: Just new properties. So, old properties, not necessarily?

J: Yes, the...yeah, the sales of new homes. Now, there is one potential downside that might, let’s say...er...slow that down a little bit. And, of course, the sales of new homes are expected to increase...er....on the other side, the property prices are also expected to increase.

G: Good.

J: So, the potential, I mean, obviously if anybody out there is considering selling their house, or what not, be very careful about the prices they offer because you probably should add an additional – at least – 10%, or who knows what, on top of what you’re thinking.

G: Let’s make the increase happen in advance.

J: There you go.

G: Let’s do it.

J: So, what do you...what do you have for us, Gee?

G: Well, I’m going to start with something that caught my eye which has an element – more than an element – of tragedy. As...as you know, I have had some stories in the past about people dying and...

J: Generally, every once per week!

G: ...unfortunately people die in this story too. So, I’ll...I’ll apologize for that in advance, but there is a reason for including this story. It’s a fairly long story but I’ll try and start at the beginning.

J: Ok.

G: So, there was – or there is still, they didn’t die – a British Indian couple who decided to adopt an 11-year-old boy back in India.

J: So, they...they were born in India and now they live in England?

G: I believe that’s their situation, yes.

J: Ok.

G: So, they adopted this boy. So the boy obviously planned to join them in England and he needed some visa papers.

J: Right.

G: So, he set off with his sister’s husband, his brother-in-law, to the city of Gujurat, in India, where he was planning to sort out his paperwork.

J: Ok.

G: And, on the route, um, Nature called, and the brother-in-law needed to park the car and attend to his...er...bathroom needs.

J: So, he had to go to the bathroom. Ok.

G: And a motorbike approached with two men on it and they kidnapped the boy.

J: They kidnapped the boy?

G: They kidnapped him, and the brother-in-law obviously tried to prevent this and, unfortunately, he was stabbed and killed.

J: Eesh.

G: And the boy, it turned out, he turned up later, and he’d been stabbed too.

J: But he’s...he’s dead? No, no.

G: Well, he didn’t die immediately. He was in hospital and it took him nearly a week to die. So, he obviously didn’t have a very pleasant final few days.

J: Ok, this is a terrible story!

G: So, why was the boy killed, do you think?

J: Well, that’s a good question. For a...for a ransom, I guess. Money.

G: He did...he didn’t have a lot of money on him. He didn’t have much of anything, actually. What happened was...allegedly... Now I must use the word ‘allegedly’ because that’s always important in these cases, if you don’t want to get prosecuted. What happened, allegedly, was that when they adopted the boy, they took out a life insurance policy on the boy...

J: Ok.

G: ...to the value of £150,000. So...

J: Ok.

G: ...in the event of his death, then the sole beneficiary was going to be the adoptive mother.

J: Oh no. So...so now they suspect the adopted mother behind this?

G:  So, they believe – particularly the Indians authorities and the Indian government – they believe they have good evidence that there was a connection between the people who...

J: Adopted...

G: ...committed, committed the crime of killing the boy, and the adop...the mother who adopted the son.

J: Oh, my goodness.

G: In...including possibly, um, a confession but, anyhow. So the...

J: Oh my go...this...this is terrible!

G: Um, but because the crime happened in India, then he wasn’t, you know...the couple couldn’t be prosecuted in England.

J: And, of course, they knew this, they knew that they couldn’t be prosecuted in...in...in England.

G: Exactly. So, obviously the British government is going to extradite them to India, right?

J: Right. No.

G: Wrong. Basically, the court, um, has decided and ruled that the couple should not be extradited for trial in India because if they were sent to India and they were convicted, they risked being...er...imprisoned for life...

J: And?

G: ...and that is considered inhumane and would be in breach of Article 3 of the European Court of Human Rights.

J: You have got to be kidding me! So, so......the...

G: I kid you not.

J: This is totally bizarre. So, so now, let’s say, through a...a loophole in the law, these people...it’s poss...it’s quite possible that they have plotted against killing somebody, they receive financial gain, and they cannot be poss...prosecuted.

G: Well, it...the good news is the insurance wasn’t paid, so...

J: Well, thank god.

G: ...they didn’t profit from the murder, at least. So, all they’ve done is create a nasty situation for everybody. Um, the Indian government has actually said – ‘Look, we promise we will not life-imprison them. We will offer leniency. We have the option...’

J: That’s the thing. The government can...can promise this but the courts have freedom to decide what they want.

G: So, it was argued that, yes, th-the coul...the government couldn’t necessarily intervene in this case and that because there was the risk...

J: Oh, my goodness.

G: ...that the couple would be imprisoned for life, then they will not be extradited...which I find somewhat surprising, actually.

J:  This is just too bizarre for words, really. That’s terrible.

G: And the irony is, you’d have thought that, because of the Brexit, we were trying to get away from the control of European laws, and here they are using a European law to justify not extraditing the couple.

J: Well, they’re still part of the European Union.

G: Anyway, th-the bottom line is, there is still a possibility that they could either be tried in Britain, if they can prove that they were planning the crime in Britain.

J: Ok.

G: Or, they’re gonna change the rule and law in India to allow the couple to be extradited.

J: Right, so, who knows yet?

G: So, there is the possibility. But, for the moment they are walking free and I don’t know how they feel about that.

J: Oh, my goodness.

G: So, I...I’m sorry to share a very sad story with you, but I thought it was interesting just from the...the extradition point of view, really.

J: Well, it’s interesting and, and...phh. That’s terrible.

G:  Cos we always, we always...um, you know...I say always, but there’s a tendency... We talked about the Lebanese – whether they would extradite Carlos Ghosn – the other day, and we...we...you know...we kind of mocked them a little bit that they would never extradite anybody, and here we have the British doing the same thing. You know?

J: Doing the same thing. Ok.

G: And with one of their allies. So, it’s all...it’s all...

J: It’s terrible.

G: Who understands the world these days?

                                                                                                                      End of Part 1 

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G: Today, we are delighted to welcome to The Samba Buzz, Renata Vasconcelos. Welcome Renata!

J: Welcome Renata. Good morning!

R: Good morning. Thank you very much for the opportunity.

G: So, Renata, you are a headhunter, yes?

R: Yes, I am.

J: W-what’s a headhunter? Isn’t that like a…a cannibalistic thing?

G: Exactly, yes. I’ve got my spear ready, just in case.

R: Ok, so, I’m a headhunter or executive search…er…consultant. Er…we are hired by companies to…to find talents and too, of course locate those who meet specific job requirements for…er…different sectors or…er…different size of companies.

J: So, it could be like…er…industrial plants or…

R: Could be.

J: …consulting companies or…

R: Yes. Yes. Actually, we work with all sectors.

G: So I guess a lot of the time the companies don’t want to know, or don’t want people to know, that the position’s available, no? That’s why they often use headhunters, cos it’s covert, isn’t it?

R: Yes. Almost 100% of our…er…work is…er…is confidential.

J: Ok, but why…why would that confidentiality be necessary?

R: Er…sometimes it’s because of...is a replacement of some executive that is…er…

J: Don’t (sic) know that he’s going to be replaced!

R: Yes. That’s…er…this could be one reason but the other reason could be that as we recruit in the c-level and very high positions, most of our clients, they want to...to preserve the…er…the strategy. I’ve been working with...er...as a headhunter since 1995 – more than 20 years.

G: So, what changes have you seen in the market in that time?

R: I think we will take on a more strategic role within the business. We are much more close...er...from (sic) the strategy than in the past and, of course, the market is a lot more competitive. Er, we have a lot of boutiques and a lot of small consultancies and...

J: There’s a lot of competition. Could you describe a little bit the process of what you do?

R: Ok. In search we act based on the identification, evaluation and verification of motivation.

G: You use some assessment tools for this, yeah? What type of tools do you use?

R: We use, of course, the interview, our competencies interview and also we use sophisticated assessment tools – 2 tests, very famous ones, too. One of them talk (sic) about your personality, the other one is about, is a kind of self-evaluation.

G: Ok.

R: We put a lot of, erm, emphasis in (sic) interviews.

G: Hm, so let’s talk about interviews, shall we?

J: So, let’s talk about interviews!

G: What makes a good interview? What do you look for in a candidate when you interview them?

R: I...I had a boss in the past that said – ‘Recruitment is part of...part science and part...and another part is art.’ I think the meaning, erm, of this idea is, that you have, of course, a technical side. When you look (at) the resume of a person, when you investigate his career, background, and competencies but also we have the...the other part that is very subjective, or...

J: Subjective, yeah. So, le-let me give you a hypothetical situation.

R: Ok.

J: Ok? Imagine you have to interview a candidate for...er...CEO. You need to find a CEO for a particular company. What do you think is... Is there one thing that that candidate has to have for soft skills?

R: For CEO I think it’s leadership skills – to have...erm... influence, make good decisions and...

J: So, what’s... what’s inherent in making good decisions? Is pressure part of that, or...

R: Yes. To be able to act under pressure, able to communicate well, able to be persuasive, to...erm...to, to put all the stakeholders together. So, too engage people.

J: Ok.

R: So, this...those...this kind of things.

J: Right.

R: It is very important to be someone that...erm...can inspire others and also make hard decisions, take pressure, and do (sic) with a lot of things together. So, it’s important to have a...

J: Combination. A package.

R: A package. Health. Ego. Motivation. Energy. I think headhunters, they have to...er...to be very transparent. And we expect that the candidate acts in transparency as well. So, is a...our...our job is a lot about credibility. It’s not a...

J: Right.

R: ...not a sell mode.

G: So, talking of this, have you ever placed somebody who was a disaster afterwards in the position?

R: Thanks god, no! No, never.

G: But you...you’ve had negative feedback from the client, from people you’ve recommended to them? Or...

R: Very few cases. Most of cases we did well...very well. Most of the cases, these candidates, these executives, they don’t want to make a career change. So, erm, that’s why it’s important to have someone that will influence this person to...

G: To sell...

R: ...open the mind.

G: Sell the position to them.

R: It’s not a sell. I don’t like this word. Because we just do this when we believe that it will be good for this person. Headhunters, they act as a...er...influence these people to open their minds to see the...the opportunities because, I dunno, probably 90% they don’t want to.

J: They don’t want to change.

R: Actually, it’s very satisfying to...when you...erm...when you put someone in a position and you do a lot...you do a follow up and find out that the person is happy and the company is happy as well. And, so this is one of the measures.

G: It’s like being a match-maker, isn’t it? You know match-making?

R: Yes, a match-maker. Match-making, yes. Yes, yes.

G: They all lived happily ever after.

R: Yeah.

J: So, I have a different question. Um, in twenty years that you have done this, have you ever had a perfect match between the pants that the person’s wearing and the chair that they’ve been sitting. Because I’m...I’m looking at this...

R: This is...this is a kind of, I don’t know...

G: This is dangerous. It’s going to act like a kind of blue-screen. We can put anything on this picture now.

J: Because your pants match perfectly with the purple chair. I’ve never seen this!

R: Yeah, I never...I’ve never seen this. But it’s...I think it’s a kind of...how can I say?

J: A karma, maybe?

R: A karma, yes.

G: Alright, changing the subject here. If somebody was, considering a career in executive search, what tips would you give them? What sort of background is helpful in your field of work?

R: Er, we look for a good formation.

G: Background.

R: Background.

G: Academic background.

R: Academic background. Er...

G: But it could be in any subject, then, really?

R: Any subject. Any subject. You have, of course, like to...you have to like people, of course, because you will...er...

G: Well, that’s quite difficult, right there, isn’t it?

R: You...you...in the beginning of this career, in the research team, you have to...I dunno....probably call 20, 30, or 50 people per day and listen to their stories and to talk with them and make relationship (sic), nurturing this. And also you have to be...have to have a lot of curiosity.

J: Curiosity?

R: Yes.

G: Um, obviously you are a w...a lady, working in a male-dominated environment, which – obviously executives generally are males... Have you ever been in any awkward situations because of this...this male-female dynamic?

R: Y...yes, I think sometimes I still work with clients that don’t want women, er, in the shortlist, for example.

J: Ah, that’s interesting.

R: Yes.

J: W-why? What’s the perception against women?

R: I heard from a client that women are not so clever.

G: Well everybody knows that!

R: But in the other way, I have a lot of clients, much more than 20 years ago, that not only want people on the shortlist but is a...how can I say? Exigência.

J: They...they...they demand.

G: A requirement.

R: Demand. We see, for example, we do a lot of...um...board assessments and board...er...positions. We hire a lot of board members. And we see that it’s very hard to have women in (sic) boards in 2020. So...

G: And yet companies with women on the board have been shown to do better, haven’t they? Around the world.

R: Yes. Yes. In Brazil, it’s only 2% of women on the board. You still have some cultures that don’t want to hire mothers because of the maternity leave. So...

J: So, but ok, from a company perspective, if you say...er – ‘Ok, here’s a woman CEO. She’s the best candidate but she’s pregnant. And then in...er...six months she’s not going to be there.’ How-how do you negotiate that?

R: Actually, we are seeing this movement. A lot of companies hiring women pregnant, and they have to have someone inside a company or...er...board members or, I dunno, a team that support. Because it’s 4 months...

J: 4 months maternity leave.

R: ...maternity leave. 4 months. It’s not so much.

J: Last que...I have one last question. Er, because we’re talking a little bit here about discrimination, possibly, between sexes, what about other, let’s say, sexual preferences, for gays. Are there companies out there that say – ‘Ok, we need a CEO. We don’t care if it’s male or female, but God please don’t give us any gay candidates.

R: I never, I never faced...er...this situation.

J: You never had that situation?

R: No. No, never.

G: Do you have candidates who admit to being gay?

R: Yes.

G: They tell you they’re gay?

R: Yes.

G: And how does that affect...does that affect your reasoning at all, in terms of the fit?

R: No.

G: No?

R: No. No. For me, the thing that I’ve faced a lot – I’ve never, never did a search with a black one, with a black people (sic) – with a CEO...er...

G: With a black CEO?

R: No, never.

J: But there has...there has to be some...some great candidates out there.

R: It’s very, very sad. We don’t see. We don’t see. We don’t have inside the companies. We have one...two...

J: And that’s it? Ok. Do you have anything else you wanna ask?

G: No, I think...I think we’ve worn you out, actually. So...

J: I think...think she’s tired, yeah.

G: Thank you...thank you for effort there...

R: Thank you, guys.

J: Thank you. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you Renata.

R: Thank you very much.

G: Yes, we appreciate it very much. We’ll have you back again sometime – once...you know...

R: Oh, ok, thanks.

G: Once you’ve got...once we’ve changed our chair!

R: Please, change your chair and I’ll change my trousers!

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                                                                                                                                                                     End of Part 2