BLM in Brazil

J: Today here with The Samba Buzz we have Shawn Moss who’s joining us all the way from Washington DC.

G: Welcome Shawn!

S: Thanks for having me here.

G: Thanks for coming on. It’s great to see you.

J: Shawn worked...er...many years in investment banking, I think. I...I think he still works in investment banking, and he’s here to tell us a little bit about some of his business adventures in Brazil and also a little bit about...er...his perspective on the BLM movement, the black lives movement...Black Lives Matters (sic) movement in the United States. So, erm, Shawn, tell us...er...a little bit about yourself. Er, how did you even get to Brazil?

S: Yeah, you know, so that’s a very interesting story. Erm, once upon a time, I worked for JP Morgan, and I worked in investment banking there, large finance. And I provided assistance to the Latin America group, um, as well as our private equity group and fund...and automotive. And, so I worked...um... for a couple of years on projects in Brazil and Argentina.

J: Right.

S: And I worked with the Latinos in our [sound unclear], and I got really sold on South America, particularly Brazil, as a sort of up and coming region of the world, high growth and...er...a place with a lot of opportunity.

J: After...after you came here, originally, then...er...you started working. I believe you started working for yourself then, at that time, right?

S: Yeah, so, around 2008, I wrote a business plan for an M&A advisor consulting firm, er, to basically help private equity firms expand into Brazil. Because one of the things that I noticed as a 5, was that as a percentage of...um...PIB, or GDP, private equity was very much under-represented in Brazil, particularly for a country of its size. And so, as a 5, I predicted that a lot of private equity firms would rush in and...er...expand into Brazil, um, but they would need advisory and also too, understanding private equity, because I worked in the sector for 5 years. Er, their deal teams would need to help to fill the pipeline.

J: Right.

S: And so I set upon a strategy to meet a lot of small and midsize companies and families and started introducing them to private equity firms.

J: Right, so, then you...you were successful with a couple of projects. You had...you had some sev...several successful launches while you were here?

S: Yeah, so, I closed...um...one “big” transaction – big, right, in...in...in quotations, big for Brazil. At the time it was the largest chemical transaction in M&A in Brazil – about R$200 million, at the time. Um, so I provided full-scale advisory, introduced that company into Clayton Dubiliere & Rice, and they thought it was a good fit with one of their portfolio companies – a $2 billion revenue company called Linus. I was able to close that in 2015...um....which was a...um...very precipitous here. I mean the FX fell 40%, the capital gains rate...um...um...fell, as a...incr...was set to increase as well. And...um, there was (sic) a lot of reasons why that deal probably shouldn’t have closed, but I was able to get both sides through the transaction.

J: So, so, in...in...in your view, after – because of your experience – what would you say are some of the main differences between...between doing business here and in...in the United States, or doing business in Brazil?

S: A lot of...a lot of differences. I don’t wanna be too nitpicky. Um...but...er...the level of...er...commitment between Americans and Brazilians is very, very different, and so it’s very difficult to keep meetings on the calendar. Um, I would, kind of, budget for a meeting to be rescheduled at least 3 times...

J: Right.

S: ...in Brazil...um...you know, just to meet with someone. And over that three times, you know, easily three months could pass. So, the velocity of business is...er...much faster in the United States. Er, you could send an email in Brazil and not get an answer for 2 weeks!

J: Right.

G: In terms of doing...er...business, i...imagine there were somebody similar to you who was Brazilian who works in the financial markets, maybe works in mergers and acquisitions here, and they either get an offer to move to the US, maybe in New York, or they would like the opportunity to move to the US...er...what sort of advice would you give somebody in terms of how things operate differently in the US, and how they should prepare for that?

S: Well, the first thing they will get hit with is productivity. So, just be prepared to work probably ten-times harder in the United States than in Brazil. That’s not to say Brazilians don’t work hard...um...but the...the type of work...um...you know, that you will be doing in the United States, in terms of how quickly he has to respond to emails, or how quickly he has to turn around a deliverable within the company that may depend on others in Brazil...um...those sort of things, those sort of productivity issues, you know he has to sort of watch out for. But in terms of knowing...um...I know quite a few Brazilians that worked in finance in Brazil and moved to the United States. I find that they made the transition pretty smoothly...um...and, you know, I don’t think anyone, somehow – I don’t think anyone really in Brazil, you know, likes to move at a pace of business, at...at a snail’s pace. I just don’t think, you know, it’s just the culture. It just happens ands I think people sort of take advantage of it. It’s like, “great, there’s more beach time” or more bar time, or whatever.

G: Interesting. Well, I guess if you’ve got the profile to work in investment banking in the first place then probably you can do it anywhere, pretty much, no?

S: Probably.

J: So...so, what do you...so now you...since you’ve been in Brazil you’ve moved back to the United States. What do you...what do you miss about Brazil, being in the United States?

S: Ooh, definitely the weather! That’s a big reason why I moved to Brazil in the first place. I hate cold weather. Um, and we’re sitting here and it’s April in the DC area...er...it’s still pretty cold. And Brazil, of course, the beaches, you know it’s...it’s always ten minutes or an hour away, depending if you are in Rio or in São Paulo. That’s why I say I have to miss...I have to miss that. Erm...you know, very much so – just being able to book a ticket and be in...er...Rio in one hour, or Copacabana or Ipanema.

J: Right. Now...now I’d like...I’d like to shift our conversation just a little bit. Erm, because, at the moment, I think there are some things happening in the United States that many Brazilians, they look at and they see on the news but I think that they don’t really understand...er...let’s say, the...the...the scope of...of the scale of...of what’s going on. So...so, let’s say, on a personal level, have you ever experienced what you’d say was discrimination?

S: Well, yeah – of course! Um, you know, I think it’s just discriminatory on its face to be the only black executive in a company of, say, 100 people.

J: Right.

S: Er...there’s something, you know, going on there and I think just, you know, my sector of finance...erm... African Americans have always been under-rep...under-represented. Especially...um...black men. Um, you know, so, but the discrimination in the United States, you know, is...is very subtle, um, because people just, you know, aren’t stupid. There’s not going to be, you know, very discriminatory, racist in your face. Um, you know, so it’s just very, very subtle in terms of what happens. Um, I would call it ‘soft racism’ or ‘diet racism’.

J: Ok. So...

S: It’s more subtle. For instance, on a corporate level...um...certain employees would get invited to the boss’s house but you would never get invited to the boss’s house or you would never get invited to golf.

J: Ok. Right. So, I...I think for...for...can you describe for anybody, let’s say, Brazilians don’t really understand the BLM movement or the Derek Chauvin trial. What...what don’t they understand about it that...that you think’s important?

S: Well, I think those are two very...um...separate things. In terms of the Derek Chauvin trial...um...I believe that...you know...they kind of don’t understand that it’s the beginning of a process of reforming police or policing in the United States. Um, this is just, sort of...um...one step towards that direction because there’s something that’s very systemic in the way...um...that policing occurs in the United States. And in many ways there’s two United Stateses. There’s two US justice systems. There’s two US policing systems. Um, two...two very different countries within each other and I think this is a part of a process to try to...um...bring up, or even merge...er...black America with white America.

J: Ok. Ok, so, let’s say, you...you personally, if you go out and you contact the police and you see the police there – would you feel...er...threatened or protected by the police?

S: Well, I think most African Americans’ interactions with the police is actually traffic stops.

J: Right.

S: Um...

J: I know...I know I...I’ve been pulled over!

S: Erm, so, you know that fear’s there because you never know the real motive while you are being pulled over. You never know what’s in the mind of the...the person. I mean one of the reasons why I moved to Brazil was because I came to a point in New York City where I was getting stopped, like, twice a month! I was getting stopped all the time.

J: Just randomly?

S: Whether I was driving my car. Whether I was walking through a park. My wife was getting stopped. She was getting cat-called by police.

J: Right.

S: She was getting, yeah, basically harassed, and she was getting patted down by police. I mean it’s...the police state in the United States is pretty ridiculous but I think in New York it is three times more ridiculous than anywhere else.

J: Right. Right, because I...I never had that situation at all. Thank God the police don’t want to pat me down!

S: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, like I was riding my BMW in Manhattan, and I was stopped, and the police says, “Is...” – he asked me – “Is this your car?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he was like, “Well, I saw the Wharton sticker on your car, so I was pretty sure it wasn’t your car.”

J: Oh my god.

S: “And...um...and by the way, drug-dealers drive this type of car.” It was a BMW.

J: Yeah. That’s crazy.

S: Yeah, so...um...yeah, I showed them my license and registration, you know, but, if it were, you know, someone else with a different personality, you know, that conversation could have go in a different way. It could have become hostile.

J: Right. Right.

G: What about when you were here in Brazil? Did you find people treated you differently because of your skin color, or no?

S: Well, very much so. Unfortunately, Brazil...you know, Brazil it’s funny because Brazil has this international reputation of being this racial democracy, and it’s...it’s anything but that. You know, in Brazil there’s this expression – “Para o inglês ver.” Right? Which means ‘for the English to see’ – and it’s just for appearances. Um, you know, every year during Carnival, Brazil...um...exports these images internationally of...um...you know – the beautiful brown and black women, you know, doing the samba. You know, so, the world kind of thinks – “Wow, Brazil has it together. They kind of have this race thing figured out.” Um, but it’s not really true. Unfortunately, in terms of race and the race discussion the United States sucks all of the air out of the room. And so, there’s no room for conversation about what’s going on throughout the Americas or even through Europe. And so Brazil is, you know, people have said Brazil is actually the most racist country in the world.

G: Hm-mm.

S: Um, and I think that’s probably a fair assessment, and yes, I was treated, you know, very differently. I mean, it was kind of a funny feeling. I would pull together these meetings with twenty people...with sort of twenty people and...um...we would have to start the meeting off, you know, the first ten minutes would be about...um...you know, how I looked African...how I looked like I am from Bahia...how I looked...how I looked like a sambista. You know. People had to get over the fact that I’m black for the first ten minutes of the meeting. Right, that’s...that was always the discussion and I would have to, you know, have it...you know...tongue in cheek, you know, but in a way it was almost like an undressing, because Brazil has a caste system. You know, so, in...in the caste system white is on top. Black or Indian is on the bottom, and...um...those kind of...you know, them trying to level the playing field almost, you know, I don’t know how to describe it. But...um...you know, besides that, you know, as soon as I left the door of my apartment, you know it would start. You know? It...it would be...it either starts with the neighbors, you know, not speaking to the only black guy in the neighborhood of ten thousand, or with the doorman not wanting to let me out or let me in, you know, the building. It was always a place...it was always a sort of a sense of ‘not belonging’.

G: So, that’s doubly bad for you cos you’re out of place to begin with cos you’re...you’re in Brazil and you’re American, so then you got the ‘double-whammy’ there, no?

S: Yeah. Yeah. But it’s also a double-whammy in another perspective. So, in Brazil, black Americans, we have American privilege, and so it’s sort of the opposite thing with the police. I never had a police interaction in Brazil. In ten years. Never.

J: Yeah? Not one?

S: The police never encountered me. Not one. They would see me on the street but because of how I dressed and how I move, they recognize that I’m black American, that I live in the neighborhood, um, they didn’t really bother me. Yeah, but the minor aggressions in Brazil – they are definitely very severe. Um, you know, I have been called the N-word only twice in my life. Once was in the fourth grade, and the other time I was actually with Bryan Wensloff – our good friend Bryan – and...um...at a sort of a bar and out of nowhere, this Brazilian professional just calls you me the N-word!

G: Good lord.

S: You know, just literally. And he just yelled it out. Just one word. This is without context. He just yelled it out. Bryan and I just looked at each other and we looked at the Brazilian guy and he yelled it out again! So, he yelled it out twice!

G: So, did you kill the guy, or what did you do?

S: Ah, well, I will just say this. The end of the story ended with this guy – and he was...he was a pretty massive guy – the guy was, you know, a pretty muscular guy. Um, he was...he sobbed. He was crying uncontrollably on my shoulder. That...that’s the way the story ended. And I’m not going to tell you how he got there! He...he apologized!

G: Yeah. Yeah, I think you picked the wrong guy there!

J: So...so, thanks Shawn. Thanks for coming to...er...The Samba Buzz! I appreciate you taking...taking your time.

G: Much appreciated. Thanks very much!

J: And...er...we appreciate your views on the...on the situations.

S: Thanks for having me on. And...um...I hope that I can come on again. It was really enjoyable.

End of part 2   

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G: So, Jay, I believe you’re doing guru this week?

J: I...I do. I have the..the guru. I have a list of...erm...mistakes that some students have made.

G: Ok. Let’s go.

J: Ok. So, wha...what I intend to do with this one is, I...I made a compilation of different sentences here and I’m going to read the sentence and you tell me if it’s...er...correct or incorrect.

G: Ok.

J: And then we’ll discuss a little bit about...er...what makes it correct or incorrect.

G: Sounds good.

J: Er...so, first one. She has tried much times to raise a little extra money.

G: That is incorrect.

J: Good. So, she has tried much times. So, what’s wrong with ‘much’ in this case?

G: Well, ‘time’ is an interesting word because it’s got two different meanings. One is countable and one is non-countable. So, when you’re talking about a period of time then it is non-countable, and when you are talking about instances of time...

J: Like vezes.

G: A bit like vezes, then it is countable. So, it should be many times.

J: Ok. Great. Him and her never even asked us to lend them the money.

G: That is incorrect.

J: Ok. What’s wrong with this one? Anything with him and her?

G: Well, him and her are normally the objects of the sentence rather than the subjects.

J: Right.

G: So, that’s basically the problem.

J: So, that, then, it would be much better to say something like, ‘he and she’.

G: Exactly.

J: Ok. She told him about her decision and he expressed your dissatisfaction with it.

G: Well, your would be incorrect.

J: Yes.

G: Cos it’s not my dissatisfaction, no.

J: Exactly. It’s not your dissatisfaction.

G: Well, it could be, I suppose, in the context, but yes..

J: Yes, but it’s probably his dissatisfaction.

G: Probably, yes.

J: Few issues have raised so many problems.

G: Few issues have raised so many problems? That would be correct.

J: Ok. He...here you wouldn’t say ‘little issues’, right?

G: Not in that context, no.

J: Ok. I have numerous questions about the situation, and I hope you can answer it.

G: Well, ‘it’ would be incorrect because it’s referring back to questions, which is plural.

J: Right.

G: So, then the plural of ‘it’ is...?

J: Them.

G: ...them.

J: In this case.

G: There we go.

J: And that...that...that’s one tricky thing, let’s say, for English, because ‘them’ can be the plural for people as well as for things.

G: This is true, and I think a lot of people don’t realize that.

J: Yes. You and I should not open this package because it was not given to you and I.

G: Well, ok, yes, it would be a bit of an unnecessary repetition there. Not given to us would be...er...

J: Yes. There you go.

G: ...more natural.

J: Many students have tried for perfect grades but little of them have succeeded.

G: That would be incorrect, because ‘little’ is for non-countable and students is countable.

J: Right. So, it should be few of them.

G: Exactly. Few of them.

J: Ok. And the last one. Our friends are coming to visit us after they visit your parents.

G: That would work if they know your parents.

J: Right. But it’s probably their – they’re visiting their parents.

G: Probably...probably visiting their parents, yes.

J: And...and I...I think I made that one, let’s say, a couple of times because that issue...that mistake about sua or ‘your’, actually I do hear that quite frequently. So, that’s kind of why I included that multiple times.

G: Well, ee...even in Portuguese it causes confusion sometimes, because...um...if you say...er...um...Ele entrou no seu carro...

J: Yes, he entered in my car.

G: Is it my car or his car? So, to be clear, you’d have to say o carro dele, no?

J: Yeah. Exactly.

G: So, then even in Portuguese you get that confusion.

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J: I think that pretty much wraps up another pod, Gee.

G: That wraps up episode 24, I believe.

J: Yep, episode 24. So, the next one will be our semi-anniversary.

G: Well, it’s the 25th episode, so maybe we’ll do something a little bit different or a bit special or get somebody in who’s going to be a bit different from the other people we’ve brought in.

J: Ok. We can do that. Somebody different.

G: Somebody different. Um, I won’t tell you who he is yet but...

J: Oh. Ok. Good. Don’t do that. Erm, probably because we don’t even know who it is!

G: Well, he hasn’t confirmed yet, but yes.

J: Oh ok. So, as always, if you wish to reach out to us, feel free to contact us.

G: ...at mailbox@thesambabuzz.com

J: Yes, please write to us. Give us your suggestions or complaints.

G: Or if you wish to come on the pod, and be a guest.

J: Right. Or if you have any great ideas about what we can talk about.

G: Or any doubts about guru.

J: Right.

G: Things you’d like to clear up.

J: Yes.

G: We are here.

J: So...

G: We’ll see you next time.

J: We’ll see you next time. Au revoir.

G: Um, goodbye, and stay safe!

J: Goodbye. Stay safe. Take care. And what else do they say in Japan...er...when they say goodbye?

G: I don’t know. Probably goodbye.

J: Er. I don’t know. Ok. Bye-bye.

G: Bye-bye.

Voice: Sayonara!

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